Thread was getting lost in theory and praise. Falconer and I have essentially the same questions.

Using this wrap, what is the formula on how close to place your butt guides? Is not the butt guide placement still a function of the reel and angle of the line coming off the reel?

How do you get away with using less guides? You still have to take your back cast into account. You also still want an even distribution.

If you use too low of a guide and make the first offset very acute, the line is going to cut you real deep and real fast if a good fish gets on and makes a good run.

Comments?

Mike,
As you've read everthing on the spiral wrap you can find - the basic rule is - there are no rules. There are many ways to accomplish the same thing. Is there ONE best way? Probably - but who are you going to believe? It depends - is it a casting rod? boat rod? trolling rod? Flip/Pitch rod? noodle rod? etc. What's the size of fish-line-reel-rod?

Here are some ideas.
Use guides you have confidence in for the blank and target fish. Use more guides - not less - to protect the rod and increase sensitivity.
Use low guides everywhere you can. If the first guide must be high for a reason - (like a Flip stik or boat rod) - do it - it will be fine.

For a boat rod, center the LINE with the first and fourth guides and don't worry about torque loosening the two transition guides - it won't
happen if you use a guide appropriate for the blank and size of fish.
Centering the LINE with the fourth guide will put the line directly opposite the effective spine (assuming you've put it on top).

hello i don't know what the formula is but i have been puting my butt guide 15 to 16 in frome the face of the reel and i use a 16 butt guide.and it has worked really well except for some tuna rods and some other trolling rods i use a size 20 butt guide when you place your reel tape the guides on and you run the line through them you can tell what size butt guide you are going to need. all i really know is the spiral wrap is the only way to go.regards John

Considering I make bass rods and not surf rods I've had my butt guides start no less than 18" from the reel face. I use the O'Quinn method with the but guide at around 45 degrees or so. I think this lends itself toward a longer placement of the butt guide. Most of my rods are done Concept style starting with a double footed 12 J model Fuji which is a perfect style for this. I've made a couple of rods without using the concept style ie: doublefoots all the way down and the 18" butt guide spacing still works great. I have not had ANY problems with line stacking on these rods, incuding the Salmon rod I described in the last post. I'm with Rich on not scrimping on guides. Mike tape them up with the same number of guides and spacing you would a normal "guides on top" rod then just rotate the first three - 45, 90 and 135 degrees. Do your static and cast tests and adjust from there. You'll find the right combo and may be suprised that you don't need to change anything. Good luck.

We use a #20 or 25 wide frame 3 leg as butt guide,20-24" from front of reel seat, follow with 4each #8 same style, turn in 2 guides, with space from butt guide 7" to 8" and between the first 4 guides, and then single foot on med to light rods, 2 foot on heavier, either #7 or #8 depending on expected line test. The spacing from 4th guide up to tip should be done by "stress" (flex) testing with guides taped on. The larger butt guide seems to help the line coming off the reel, and allow some change of angle to the next one as the rod flexes. It also helps keep the line off the front grip (your hand) when fighting a big fish on lighter or more flexible rods.
We always mount the butt guide straight up, having had problems with level wind binding on big fish.
Hope this helps, we are definitely in favor of "turnover" wraps!

Rod 1; anchor rod for pier kink fishing using Penn 505HS Accuratized

11'0" solid glass, 2 piece, NSG 30, 25, 20, 16, 16, 12, 12, 12

Butt guide 25" from from of seat with fixed hood to rear

Rotate first 3 guides 45, 90, 135, fourth and following guides at 180.


Rod 2; fighting rod (= boat type rod) using 114HLW Accuratized

7'0", solid glass, 30#, LRSG 25, 20, 16, 16, 12, 12

Butt guide 21.5" from front of seat with fixed hood to the rear

Rotate first 3 guides 45, 90, 135, fourth and following guides at 180


Have been using these basic sizes and spacings on regular rods forever. Is this similar to how the spiral rods of similar type are set up?

Hard to tell without seeing them. Which style spiral did you use? With the O'Quinn method you just run the line from the reel to the first underside 180 guide and adjust those guides inbetween so that the line is not deviated from the straight, or almost straight, path. Very easy to set up.

Your guides sound awful big to me, but again I could not say for sure without having it here to look at. I guess just give it a try and if it's not quite what you want you can just adjust the spacing or sizes. Nice thing about being a rod builder is that these changes are all pretty easy to make!

Mike
To answer your questions directly. The butt guide placement is definitely a function of the reel being used and the angle of the line coming off the reel. If you will read my write up in Rodmaker magazine a year or two ago you will find that my tests convinced me that 15" from the face of the reel is the MINIMUM distance to place the butt guide. I never established any maximum distance. As this distance closes there is more and more a danger of the line stacking upon one side of the reel while under heavy load. I found that at 12" it tends to stack with heavy loads and 10 lb line. At 8" it will stack with any reel and any line. The angle is simply to severe. So I established 15" for my rods as the minimum and have never had a bit of a problem with any reel and any line weight. Depending upon rod design and size of reel, this distance is often more like 20" or beyond. 15" is the safe minimum.

That first guide -- the butt guide -- should ALWAYS be a high guide.

I have never had any concept of using LESS guides with the Roberts Wrap. I use exactly the same amount of guides as I would if it were all guides on top, and use exactly the same distribution of guides.

In your case, I must recommend smaller guides than what you are used to. You will find the line runs through the guides smoother when using this concept. I would use a #16 as my butt guide on both of your examples, followed by a #12, #10, and #8 running guides.

Be sure and review my concept of aligning the guides from the reel face with a fly rod tip. Make it a straight line from the reel face to #4 guide, and you have it made.

Tell Bill Falconer that this concept never works unless the LS Supreme is applied with a spatula.

Ralph

...And I have one where I applied the finish with a brush and now I'm scared to even try using it.

Seriously, Ralph, I am glad you clarified that bit about the 15 inch figure as being the MINIMUM. I get alot of calls from readers who say they put their butt guide at 15 inches and it seemed to close. They read the part about 15 inches, but not the part about it being the minimum distance. This should clear up some of that confusion about the butt guide location. Thanks.

......................

Ralph,
Being a surf/SW fisherman I feel 8s would be too small to handle shock leaders of 40-50lb test and blood knots. With main line of 25 Big game and a 12ft piece of 40lb Big Game for chaffing/ shock absorption I have found that a size 12 is as small as I go. I even use a 12 on most conventional boat rods, although I have used 10s on lighter rods.

Any comments??
Thanks for the info on spirals!!!!!!!!

Bill most of the post were about smaller lighter rods,the concept remains the same however you still want to use the smallest guides THAT WILL ALLOW the rod to preform to its maximum potential if 12s are needed to allow knots so be it,testing is a prerequisite when building these rods.

On an anchor line or for regular surf fishing, 25-30 main line with a 40-50 shock leader is a minimum that I use. 12's have been as small as I have found that I can get away with. Plus, most tops in the size range for surf rods run a minimum of 10.

I also usually run a 50 dacron main line with an 80# shock leader on the fighting rod.

Gonna try to get these built next week to test at Cherry Grove mid-September. Can't wait to see the looks that they get. The real test will be on pulling the anchor at the end of the day.

Gonna build another 7' jerk jigger spinning rod with the new concept system for the same trip. Getting ready to go into culture shock here.

When you pull on that anchor you will see the real benefit of the spiral wrap!!! I'll bet it reduces your effort by half!

Well a little something from a non-pro. Haven't built a rod in 4seasons but am getting geared up to start again, Been asking a lot of questions here and reading a lot of back issues of Rod Maker and Rod Crafter. So far haven't seen anything that makes me think the way I used to find a starting point for my butt guide is "wrong".Note that mostly I built rods 7' and longer and mostly for multipliers. Fix the rod blank so it doesn't move about, load the blank slowly to the deepest flex point for the "labeled action", at the point where the flex is no longer evident mark the blank, unload the blank and note the distance from butt or tip or both and thats where I initially place my "butt guide". May not "wow you out" with its technical nicities but it has always served me well for the kinds of rods I used to and will again build. Warren