I was reading John Caine's post about guide placement. I was wondering... do we worry too much about guide sizes?

I was thinking about some of the rods we use in Japan. Especially flounder and kisu boat rods, as well as long 15 foot light rods used for fishing the walls/shoreline, these rods only have tiny guides. They cast perfectly fine, even though they are used with spinning reels 90% of the time.

Does too small of a guide really reduce casting distance enough to worry about it? I'm just wondering. I know it looks unconventional. Some rods designed to be used with spectra here have nothing but tiny guides as well.

Phil

Are they using the tiny Fuji MKG or MKSG's? I was thinking about using these as running guides on a rod I plan to use braid with a very short shock leader.

Bill Batson gave me a handfull of the tiny tiny tiny Japanese guides a couple of years ago. When he handed them to me had a big grin on his face because he knew darn well that they would cause a commotion in the swamp. I never could even pick them up to get them on a rod - even the 1/4 inch tape I use to stick guides on a blank would completely cover them up. Maybe someone like Hiro could work with them but down here our hammer hands will not allow us to use them. The only shock in our world would be if we could figure out who in the devil would end up buying one!

Well William,
It can't be any harder to wrap them on a rod than tying a fly on a size 28 hook.
And Phil, I agree with you, we do worry too much. After all, we are just building rods.

Most guides are much larger than they need to be, particularly when it comes to ring size. Smaller and lighter guides generally result in a more pleasant rod - one that casts as well or better and one that balances better due to reduced weight near the tip.


..........

Bill Stevens;
Would you be interested in selling those tiny guides?
I resently finished a rod with 4mm guides but was looking for something smaller. Using braided line with it and it casts like a dream.

Bill,
Funny you should say something, I have been getting some requests for them lately. They come all the way from a 2.0 to the 5.0 sizes. These guides are so small it is kinda funny. I remember giving you those from my sample box and laughing at what the possibilities could be, and the reprecussion of such a tiny guide. I am not sure about the applications as I personally have never used them but I am sure thay are good for something??
Bill Batson
CEO
Batson Enterprises
Rainshadow/Forecast Product lines.
877-875-2381
batson@batsonenterprises.com
www.batsonenterprises.com

Maybe one of the guys on the board could pull the one hair I have left on the top of my head and wrap a set of the teennitsy thingamobs on it, bait up with a virus and go to the creek and catch a cold!

Gon Fishn

I assume they are Match guides. If you look at teh Fuji on-line catalouge you'll see they go down to like a size #2,possibly a 1, lol. I want them just becasue they are so teeny tiny. I think they are also made by Hopkins and Holloway and sold in England. A Mini rod Chris Ward built and brought to a Rodcrafter's Seminar had them on it.

Billy Stevens - LOL !!, ... Such a sense of humour, ...
I think we need a good laugh around here.
I know I do, ... An 8mm or a 7mm? ... A 7mm or a 6mm?
I think I'll reach for my 9MM and shoot somebody.
Or something, ... B)-, ... Cliff Hall+++, FL-USA.

Bill Stevens and Bill Batson,
I would love to get my hands on some 3 mm ring guides and 3 mm tip on a 4.5 tube. I got several IP 840's I would love to try with 2 lb line. I love ultra lite in long rods. Bill Batson, I think I gave Karry a picture of the bass I caught on the first IP 840 I built. I would love to compare the 3 mm rings to the 6 mm that I normally use.

Ed Smith

Bill You didn't answer my question. I am being seriuos.

Wow, I get accustomed to B/CLAG Alconite # 6's And now you come up with micro-guides. This bears thought. I want to hear/read/see the results of this experimentation. Ralph

If at first you don't succeed, go fishing, then try, try again.

Bill gave those guides to me more than a couple of years ago and everytime i turned around there they were. I would move them somewhere else and then before i knew it they would be right in front of me again. I must have moved and stored them in about eight different places. Then it dawned on me and I asked myself what in the world am I going to do with these aggravating , always in my way guides ? Well, while cleaning up my work table my hand just ever so slightly twitched and into the trash can they fell and since at the time I had just gone through back surgery and couldn't bend down to pick them out of the trash I left them there, never to be seen again.

Phil Richmond wrote: "... these rods only have tiny guides. They cast perfectly fine, even though they are used with Spinning Reels 90% of the time."

Interesting observation, Phil. Add it to the the fact that countless Zebco 202 SpinCasters and their youthful users have cast a million miles of line, that may only be a million and one miles if the guides were any bigger. B)-

That conical front cover on any Spin-Caster is, in effect, a Butt Guide with a small aperture (~10 mm) directly in front of the Reel. And an enormous FLANGE Ring that engulfs the face of the Spool and funnels the fishing line as it unfurls. Nearly ZERO-Length "Free-Flight" Zone. IMMEDIATE LINE TAMING. Surprisingly small loss of lure's & line's kinetic energy due to line resistance to bending and the frictional losses against the cover.

ROD TIP VELOCITY rules here, and rod tip velocity imparts enough energy to the launching lure that the guides and the all the other sources of energy losses are almost trivial. When you calculate the normal frictional losses it is way less than 5% of the lures kinetic energy, even with the assumption of maximal normal-angle friction.

Unless you are casting SS single-strand wire, there is either too much or not enough made of guide sizes and style choices.

To each his own, I'd say. If someone wants an opinion, I'd say, Pull up a chair. Otherwise, it is likely that it is not as critical as we are inclined to make it out to be, ... IMO, ... Cliff Hall



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2006 07:33AM by Moderator.

Yes

Tight wraps and lines,
Wylie

YES!!!! Just build and fish! I'm guilty of it too-someone slap me!

Billy Vivona Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I assume they are Match guides. If you look at teh
> Fuji on-line catalouge you'll see they go down to
> like a size #2,possibly a 1, lol. I want them just
> becasue they are so teeny tiny. I think they are
> also made by Hopkins and Holloway and sold in
> England. A Mini rod Chris Ward built and brought
> to a Rodcrafter's Seminar had them on it.
>
> NERBS - North East Rod Builders

Two to three is fairly standard on a solid glass " nibble tip" for a match rod,you should see the tip on my rod it must have an barrel ID of about 0.5 mm and is crimped on

Regards Charlie

Hey guys... internet's been in/out here underway so haven't been able to post back.

Seems that everyone's under the same belief that we do use too big of guides. Will definitely use in considering my guide selections. I think a lot of it is just what "looks" right under conventional standards.

Those tiny tiny wire guides are common in Japan, sold by Fuji. We use them here for kurodai, kind of a sea bream, and some other fish. Solid glass tip, which is super flimsy, coupled to a more solid graphite blank. Just tiny guides keep the line off the blank even though you are using a baitcaster and don't weigh enough to bog down the action. I have seen them groove with spectra though.

Pretty interesting way of fishing, use 6-8lb test. The tips are super thin diameter, usually painted yellow and orange for easy vis, tie on a small crab and a tiny splitshot, and slowly lower said crab down the side of a wall. The tip is so sensitive you pick up any hits. These rods worked great for sheepshead in FL too.

They don't cost much, can buy a box of assorted sizes (set for a rod) for like 15$. Steve, if are interested shoot me an E-mail and I'll try to get them to you when I get home.

Phil

Side note about those tiny guides... they are so small and tips so fragile that a lot of guys build their rods 2 piece. The butt cap unscrews, the tip slips into the butt cap, and the whole top half the rod stores inside the bottom half. Pretty slick.