I was considering writing a program to do the algebraic formulation for guide spacing as specified in my book by Art Steck, I think that’s his name anyway. But as I always do I searched the internet for it first and sure enough it was already there. Here is the site I found. Tell me what you guys think of this approach to the “preliminary” placement of guides. There are two different formulations on this page one is the Dale Clemens formula. This may be old news but I just found it and thought it was very helpful

[www.uwm.edu]

I suppose anything will help, but after you've done enough rods, you'll find that preliminary guide placement can be done by eye very, very well.


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Mike,

I like, Tom eyeball the prelem guide locations and tape the guides on. This takes 15 minutes at most and then go out side and cast the rod and tweek the guides until just right. Maybe another 15 minutes ivested. I'll bet that Tom can do them a whole lot quicker.

As you become more experienced, you will find that the process becomes much easier. I have built so many 7 foot popping rods that I pretty well know where the guides need to be for given model blank and often times find I never need to move a guide after intial placement. This is especially true on spiral wrapped rods.

You need to remember, this not brain surgery.

Later,
Gerald Mc

Well, well, a guide placement for dummies like me that doesn't know what a good static test looks like - I like.

Even with a guide placement chart/program you still need to do a static test to be sure of your line distribution. Strictly using a chart for guide placement puts us back to where factory rods are.

After your butt guide is placed, the fishing line tells you where to place the remaining guides.

This of course is just my opinion.

Jay

Jay--not only "your" opinion! ;)

Mike, I too like a starting point and have in the past used the Art Scheck formula as a basis. I have an Excel spread sheet which does the calculations for you. Email me and I will send it to you.

Is there an online calculator for spinning and casting rods?

Next thing you'll know, they'll have a chart telling you at what speed you should pull back on the controls to make your plane take off.

Progress is great.

Note that I said “preliminary” placement of guides" I also do a static test after I tape them in the recommended locations but on my last rod I didn't have to stray from the charts at all. At least what my green eye could tell anyway.
Jay or John would you elaborate a little more on your guide placement method for fly rods. I am still new at this so books and this place are my only means of becoming a better builder. I am used to seeing evenly spaced guides so I assume using your method the guides would not necessarily be evenly spaced??

Owen I think I can do an excel version of that formula fairly fast but thank you for the offer! And thanks for the spell check on the authors name Scheck. I am from the south you know... Now if yall will excuse me I’m going to fetch some corn cobs and head to the outhouse.

Heee Haw

I really don't think such an animal would be practical unless youe spreadsheet coulld take into account the specific reel and possible the line that you are using. Every blank reel combo would be different. This is strictly my opinion, but to use a generic formula would put you exactlt where a factory rod is and take away the main benefit of a custom rod.

Mike

Mike
Take a look at this link. It is a guide placement calculater I found a couple of years ago. I use it for my starting setup and then tweak from there.

[www.uwm.edu]

Mike Barkley hit on a great point. For instance, take an offshore blank that's rated for 30-80#. When building a rod I find out what weight line will be fished on this rod primarily and also what is the heaviest line to be fished. For the 30# line the blank would bend much less than if you were going to use 60# or 80# line. This 'will' affect how many guides you will need to place on the blank. I usually do my static test by applying at least 1/2 the break strength of the line intended for use.

Let the line (and drag preasure) be your guide.

Mike Anderson, as of now I don't do fly rods. I fish 100% saltwater and fly rods aren't as important in my neck of the woods. Personally I do own some factory Sage rplxi's that I've had for several years. They get occasional use for false albacore, spanish macs, & offshore dolphin (I've not even picked one of them up in a couple of years...sad, but true).

Jay

Ok I guess I wasn’t clear enough on the original post. These formulas are for fly rods only. I don’t think you could use them for any other kind of rods.

I'm in the same boat as Tim in that I'm not sure what a good static test is supposed to look like. Maybe someone can post some pictures showing what a good test looks like and more importantly some examples of bad placements. I understand the theory but without seeing some examples of when a placement needs to be changed I feel that I'm in the dark. This is an area where one on one time with an experienced builder would be a big help!

Peter

Well I am probably wrong again but my last fly rod was 9’ and I used 10 TICH single foot guides and two strippers. I know the first guide should be between 3.5 to 4” from the tip. My first stripper was 4” from where my hand met the rod in the casting position. Next I used the pencil, paper, scientific calculator, and a few select curse words for sleeping in Algebra class, with Art Sheck’s math formula (before I found the easy website). I then placed the guides on according to the formula, strung the rod, and loaded the it. I was looking for any flat spots in the line or rod. With 12 incrementally spaced guides on a 9’ rod I am wondering how it is even possible to have a flat spot in the first place. Arts opinion was that if there was a difference from a static test, it was too minute for most casters to recognize. I am not trying to argue here but I am looking for definitive answers from experienced builders so please don’t take it wrong. Any help is much appreciated.

I have a database of the guides I typically use (Fuji alconites, Ti-frame SiCs) that includes height of the top and bottom of the ring. I then use a spreadsheet to APPROXIMATELY locate the guides up to and including the choke guide. For the rest of the guides the program calculates their position applying a constant multiplier to the guide spacing, measured from the tip. The only thing I have to input is: (a) the total number of guides; (b) for spinning rods the height of the reel; and (c) the distance from the tip to the first guide. The program makes sure the line follows a nice straight line from the reel to the choke guide, using Tom K's guidelines.

I always experiment with varying the number of guides and tip-distance until I get something that looks "pleasing" to the eye, using the fewest number and smallest guides. So far, it works great. I'm the kind of guy who likes formulas, so that partially explains what I do.

Yes, I also test cast and do a static distribution test. But I have a couple of problems with those methods:

(1) I must not be a very consistent caster, because there's ALWAYS a lot of variation in my casting distances. Some of it also is probably due to changing conditions--wind, fatigue, etc. But I expect I just don't cast with the same exact stroke with the same exact strength everytime, and thus it's hard to evaluate a tweak to the guide spacing. To be honest, in most cases the variation WITHIN a series of casts is always larger than the variation BETWEEN a series of casts performed with different guide spacings;

(2) Short of wrapping the guides on tightly, I'm never sure the tape holds the guides on sufficiently securely to eliminate any effect on distance. A lot of times my butt guide wants to twist around the rod. If it moves, it's clearly taking energy away from the cast;

(3) On the static line test, the problem is how much deflection? I get a different optimum guide spacing depending on how much I deflect the rod. It seems obvious to me that the more severely the rod is deflected the more you need to add guides to the tip to protect it against severe point loads. So I do what probably everyone else does, deflect it a "typical" amount and see if the guides need adjusting. But I'm never sure this is really the best way to do it.

It should be noted I'm far from an experienced rod builder, having only built about 15 in my career (over a 2 year period). So I'm quite possibly missing something obivious or doing something wrong. But this is my experience.

I will preface by saying that I know nothing about fly rods! Where I see a problem with a "calculater" is that it doesn't seem to take the power or action of a blank in to account and I feel that that is a major facter. A 6' Slow ultralight (buggy whip" would not use anywhere near the same guide spacing as a 6' Tuna rod or 6 foot medium extra fast jigging rod.
I'm a "techno-junkie" computer nerd but believe that there are certain things that are better done manually

Mike

My point also, Mike.

Jay

Just saw this quote in a bamboo fly rod forum:

"Guides & guide spacing are a lot like religion. Some folks like it this way, some folks like it that way, almost everybody has at least a little, some have way too much, and a few have none at all. By starting a discussion on guides, anyone's strongly held position is likely to violate the fundamental beliefs of at least three other sects. Trying to determine truth in matters of faith will lead to mayhem and bloodshed. However, if we could all drop our guard for a day, admit that we are first and foremost devotees of the List, then we could have a nice ecumenical discussion on guides before reconvening later armed for battle."